How long do you shake your VG & PG before mixing?
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#31 (permalink)      2/4/2021 4:47:14 PM US Central   quote/reply + tips
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Wylie
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OneBadwolf wrote:

Wylie wrote:
Look into frothing your e-liquids, it incorporates oxygen into the mixture and drastically decreases the steeping time.





Oxidization is the enemy. It is the primary factor in e-liquid degeneration, and will render Nic base unvapable. The process is quite visible in Nic base, as the color change from clear, to orange is a reliable indicator of oxidization. It lowers the potency of the Nic, and creates a peppery taste. Not very nice.

Steeping, is a myth. In tea, steeping relates to the time for the tea to be fully infused with the boiling water, and affects the concentration of the Tannins etc, but in e-Liquid, you should be determining your concentrations. There is no fermentation or any other reaction that is occurring in e-Liquid, other than the degrading effects of oxidation, which is accelerated significantly, via the suspension of small bubbles in the solution. Heat also accelerates oxidation, which is why you want to keep your Nic base refrigerated.

It is not cognac, it will not get better with age, ask any commercial e-Liquid producer, and they will tell you, the fresher the better. The illusion that steeping improves e-Liquid, largely is due to poor recipes, where one or more ingredients are more prominent than they should be, either due to the amounts, or not taking the time to get the percentages correct. Steeping only blunts the flavor, look to lower, or adjusting flavoring percentages instead of relying on the deterioration of oxidization process. Get your recipe right, and there will be no need to "steep" it.

Once the e-Liquid is fully blended, that is as good as it will ever be.



Oh no, you ain't dragging me into that one! The variables are nearly as vast as VG/PG/PEG/...Alcohol base.../Nic variables, nope, no way, no how!

Graphical Edification!


Go eat a green banana!


Edited on 2/4/2021 at 5:17 PM. Reason:
Always keep your ear to the ground!
#32 (permalink)      2/5/2021 1:29:54 AM US Central   quote/reply + tips
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OneBadwolf
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Wylie wrote:

Oh no, you ain't dragging me into that one! The variables are nearly as vast as VG/PG/PEG/...Alcohol base.../Nic variables, nope, no way, no how!Graphical Edification!Go eat a green banana!





I'm not dragging anybody into anything. What then is your understanding of the chemical processes that are known as "steeping"?

Do you believe fermentation is occurring? Perhaps some esoteric spiritual reaction between the different flavorings?

Do you not believe that oxidization is a bona-fide process? Or that oxidization is accelerated via agitation or cavitation from over vigorous blending or by heat?

You, I believe were advocating "frothing". Anybody who may be considering following your advice, should look into the effects of oxidization, and the acceleration of the process via cavitation, and application of heat.

Even the extraction of liquids from fruit and vegetables, is affected by oxidizarion, due to cavitation.In some cases, cavitation can even cause chemical synthesis reactions, and inactivated enzymes, as well as generation of OH radicals inside hydrodynamic cavitation bubbles resulting in a cocktail of mystery chemicals. At least the effects of oxidization are known.

Be gentle with the juice.

Vi veri universum vivus vici. Insictus oportet nocere Proud member of the Sea Parks Fire Department
#33 (permalink)      2/5/2021 9:28:20 AM US Central   quote/reply + tips
essellar
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"Steeping" - admittedly a stupid name for what's going on, but we're sort of stuck with it now - isn't a chemical process, it's physical one. Yes, there is a lot of cargo-cult nonsense that's grown up around it, to the point I keep expecting to see crystals and pyramids popping up in the forums. But it's not entirely nonsense either.

Two things happen, basically to two different classes of flavourings. One is that more volatile compounds make their way out of the liquid. Normally, that's useful for getting rid of solvents (ethanol in most cases), but it's also useful for getting rid of some "off" notes - usually "floral" elements - that make cold beverages and hard candies work rather nicely, but which are quite objectionable in a heated aerosol.

The second is simple dispersion. Brownian motion can do things that most mechanical mixing can't do. (Homogenizers can get you to a place where you need very little additional time waiting for thermodynamics to do its thing, but that can come at the cost of mostly losing lighter aromatics in cavitation.) This aspect of "steeping" is why flavourings like Capella's Vanilla Custard V1 have a reputation for needing a very long time, especially in higher-VG liquids. They present a very different surface to olfactory and taste receptors when "clumped" (again, for want of a better word) than when seen more-or-less individually as they would be in a more evenly-dispersed suspension.

That said, there are a whole lot of flavourings that have neither elements that need to be evaporated off, nor "fat" incestuous molecules that need some persuasion to spread out and make room for themselves. Shake-and-vape is really a thing, and if you are using flavourings (or finished e-liquids that use flavourings) that are amenable to shake-and-vape, then all "steeping" will do is oxidize the nicotine and flavourings and allow time for some of the flavouring to be lost to the air space in the bottle. Other flavouring will need time (or an accelerated equivalent, which does all of the good and bad things that time does, only more quickly). If you want, say, a fugitive fruit with a VC V1 base, well... you may get a couple of days in the middle of the process where the fruit is still there and the custard isn't entirely horrible, but you'd be much better off finding another cream/custard base that doesn't exhibit VC V1's problems, or find a fruit that sticks around a little longer.

It's not all woo. There's a crapload of woo out there, yes, but "steeping" isn't entirely nonsense - apart from the not-at-all-helpful name. And there are workarounds for the times when ridiculously long "steep" times would have been otherwise necessary. VC V1 is a pretty good flavour, but so is FlavourArt Custard Premium - and if you have trouble getting that, a combination of 8 parts Liquid Barn Vanilla Ice Cream and 1 part Flavorah Vanilla Pudding (say 4% VIC and 0.5% VP) comes pretty close and is a good shake-and-vape that improves over the course of a single day. If all you're after is creaminess and mouth feel (and not the egginess and vanilla), Inawera custard at about a quarter of the percentage of VC V1 will fill the bill. There are fruits are less fugitive if the cream/bakery base you're using is going to take some time and there's nothing you can do about it.
#34 (permalink)      2/5/2021 11:02:52 PM US Central   quote/reply + tips
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vapeluvr
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I shake my soda for about 18 seconds before I open the bottle.
Vaper buys pod system, asks for a 510 adapter. LOL for days
#35 (permalink)      2/6/2021 12:09:04 AM US Central   quote/reply + tips
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I’m increasingly moving away from flavour, and sticking to ph/vg + nicotine and that’s it.

It’s juste a nicotine dispensing device for me and there is too much unknown about the ingredients and health-related implications of flavourings. Unnecessary risk and trouble.

Out on superstition I do shake my liquid for a few seconds before refilling my atty.
#36 (permalink)      2/6/2021 12:18:05 AM US Central   quote/reply + tips
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carrion4worm
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My QAnon shaman has definitely confirmed the use of human placenta in juice flavorings.

EDIT: I have never seen a benefit to steeping juice, after mixed. Most industry juicemakers "steep" their ingredients, mainly due to warehouse/shipping/more warehouse time, which is why many use the term "pre-steeped". Once the juice is properly mixed (with complete as possible, even dispersion), it's usually as good as it gets...Steeping was invented as a completely fabricated reasoning for inconsistency in a fledgling industry still finding it's way.

Edited on 2/6/2021 at 12:28 AM. Reason:
What does he mean when he says words?
#37 (permalink)      2/6/2021 4:30:50 AM US Central   quote/reply + tips
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Gigirat67
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carrion4worm wrote:

My QAnon shaman has definitely confirmed the use of human placenta in juice flavorings.



Ho my god, that’s terrible! On the other hand it makes sense and it explains a lot !

Enough sarcasm. Outside the north American cultural sphere, people may look at it differently : maybe not from the conspiracy obsessed point of view but rather the propensity to fuck things up out of greed and incompetence, industry style.
I think what’s happened before could still be going on and happen again so I’m conservative when it comes to vaping unspecified stuff.

#38 (permalink)      2/6/2021 5:50:12 AM US Central   quote/reply + tips
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analogueman
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Wylie wrote:

Wylie wrote:The variables are nearly as vast as VG/PG/PEG/...Alcohol base.../Nic variables...


Now there's mention of a base I haven't seen in a very long time! Can anyone recall why they stopped using PEG back in the day?

It's twelve inches long, but don't use it as a rule...
#39 (permalink)      2/6/2021 6:36:40 AM US Central   quote/reply + tips
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Wylie
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Lipids
Always keep your ear to the ground!
#40 (permalink)      2/6/2021 12:15:23 PM US Central   quote/reply + tips
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analogueman
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Wylie wrote:

Lipids


Really?

I'd be grateful if you could point me towards the published study (peer reviewed naturally) which demonstrates that. Because up until a couple of years ago, the only claimed study out there appears to be from some crank Naturopath by the name of William Troutt. Perhaps there's been some 'proper' research done since?

Just curious...

It's twelve inches long, but don't use it as a rule...
#41 (permalink)      2/6/2021 12:51:17 PM US Central   quote/reply + tips
essellar
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If we're talking about PEG 400, the reason it went away in the vaping world is that the producer made it go away in the vaping world, because vaping. Basically, vaping suppliers can't buy it directly, and anyone who sells it to vaping suppliers loses whatever access they had for non-vaping purposes too. You can still find it and use it, but I can guarantee that if there's even a hint of using it for e-liquids at the point of sale, that vendor is either not going to have it for long, or if they're something like an Amazon or EBay seller, their store will go away. (It's also very hard to find in smaller containers because of vaping. You want 20 litres? 100 litres? No problem. You want 1 litre? Good luck.)